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24th August 2008, 17:23
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Where does it say Muhammad's purpose was to create difference of opinion?
Many cases Allah commands to obey Him and Allah's Messenger.
"We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but as a universal (Messenger) to men giving them glad tidings and warning them (against sin) but most men understand not." (34: 28)
"O mankind! Verily, there has come to you the Messenger (Muhammad) with the truth from your Rabb (Sustainer). So believe in him, it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, then certainly to Allâh belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. And Allâh is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise." (4: 170)
"O you who believe! Obey Allâh, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and render not vain your deeds." (47: 33)
"He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad) has indeed obeyed Allâh, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (Muhammad) as a watcher over them." (4: 80)
So you see we obey Allah from Al Quran and His Messenger by following his Sunnah. There is a minority of Muslims who wrongfully reject the Prophet's Sunnah and believe only in the Quran - but the above verses suggest otherwise.
There are instances when the Sunnah compliments and even explains Quranic Ayat further, for example - we know the Quran tells us to establish the Salah and perform Wudhu - yet it is the Prophet's Sunnah that explains to us HOW to pray and HOW to perform wudhu properly - as well as how many prayers we are to perform. The Quran also tells us to go on pilgrimage - yet it is the Prophet's Sunnah that explains to us the rituals and rites of the Haj and Umrah.
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24th August 2008, 18:47
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As Salaamu Alaykum ~Ronin
I Disagree Those Verses Doesn't Tell Muhammad To Teach His ( Opinion's ) . Allah Doesn't Deal In ( Opinion's ) .. Now I Overstand Why They're Different School Though / ( Opinion's ) . I Also See Why Some Say Muhammad Being Worship , Like The Christian Jesus .
Lakum Diinukum Wa Li Ya Diin .
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24th August 2008, 19:09
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I think you are getting confused about this - the Prophet doesn't speak from his own opinion - he is after all the Messenger of Allah. Allah commands that He is obeyed and to obey His Messenger - who conveys God's Message and teachings - this is what messengers do.
Pay attention to this verse:
“Neither does he speak out of his own desire: that [which he conveys to you] is but [a divine] inspiration with which he is being inspired.” (53:3-4)
I also fail to see how you could possibly see how Muhammad may be worshipped - especially when the Prophet clearly stated:
"Do not exaggerate in praise of me just as the Christians exaggerated in the praise of the son of Mary. I am but a slave, so call me Allah's slave and His Messenger."
Also the Quran states:
“Muhammad is no more than an Apostle: many were the Apostles that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve him) with gratitude." (3:144)
Last edited by Ronin : 24th August 2008 at 19:14.
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24th August 2008, 20:13
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As Salaamu Alaykum ~Ronin
Like I Said Allah Doesn't Deal In ( Opinion's ) , Only Men Deal In ( Opinion's ) .And As For Muhammad ..
Where In Quraan Or Hadith Does It Tell Anyone To Celebrate Muhammad Birthday ?
there were no verse revealed to the Prophet Muhammad nor any real Hadith , that said for him or Muslims to celebrate his day of birth , Yet .
* You Muslims celebrate his birthday .
* You Muslims visit his grave on Hajj .
* You Muslims have special salutations said only after his name .
* You Muslims You have over 200 attributes and titles for him
* You Muslims You include his name in the Adan and the Kalima .
* You Muslims You have created a new religion called Mohammedism centered around him and mad -made Hadith and Sunna . ( Hadiyth 4;42, 4;78 , 4;140. , 6;68 , 12;6 , 51;26. 68;44, ) Hadiyth comes from the word Hadatha meaning '' Existence , Began to be ; Had A Beginning , Began , Or Originated , Existed Newly For The First Time , '' Its plural is Ahaadiyth , Ahaadiyth are Supposedly records of action , utterance and customs of The Prophet Muhammad ; any
action done in his presence and the presence of his companions , As the Koran didn't give details on certain practical matters , . The faithful , the follower of Muhammad , Relied on the example of Muhammad , Thus when confronted with A Situation in which A certain decision was Necessary , Men would relate what The Prophet Muhammad did in the same or similar case . The most reliable ..
Narrator's account would be accepted . As time went on . Many such Narrations were collected and written down by several writers , Hence , forthforming patterns for future generations . However , unscruputous Men . Seeking to advance their own ideas and cause Disunity in the commuities , Also produced their own versions of Hadiyth . It became necessary to record the Ahaadiyth
acccording to the reliability of both the Narrator and the Transmitter . The Authenticity of transmission became an entirely separate subject and even in this , there were still many disagreements . In all The Hadiyth has caused much Sectism in Islaam , And the Koran itself even states , '' Not To Form Into Sect Quraan 6;159 And The Quraan Is The Best Hadiyth Quraan 4;87 ...
* You Muslims even have some of his Whiskers in Jerusalem in the Dome of the Rock which you call a mosque . Some Muslims have The Audacity To Say They Don't Worship Him ..1st Moulud Nabiyyi Celebration October Be With Nigerian Muslims Students Association Inc . New York Chapter ,
The name of Muhammad has crept into almost every aspect of Islam including calligraphy . This form of calligraphy which is unlawful in Islam bears the name of the Prophet you Muslims worship , Muhammad , This calligraphy states ; I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of God , They wanted to praise the Prophet Muhammad so much that they created unlaeful calligraphy such as this to praise him . There leaflet dedicated to the Prophet Muhammad and mentions the name ..
of the Prophet Muhammad more that the name of the Creator . They are making it seen like you must know '' Muhammad before you know ALLAH . The name '' God '' For the greater part , is used when saluting the Prophet Muhammad Which is outright disrepect , I Ask you , who is great , ALLAH OR ONE OF hIS MANY Prophet ( Muhammad The Beloved Prophet By Muhammad IQBAL ),
What are the meanings and Implications of being the Beloved of ALLAH ? What are the reason fo loving ALLAH'S Messenger more than all the creation ? What are his extraodinary perfections ? What Is The Interrelationship between his and ALLAH'S LOVE ?
This is what I call '' Muhammad Worship ''Muslims are calling the Prophet Muhammad the '' only beloved of ALLAH '' which is not true . They place him above all creation , which would include the Angels , and this is definitely not true ( Ever Notice When You Ask A Muslim A Question They Say Muhammad This Or Muhammad That ( What About Allah ) ..
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When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
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24th August 2008, 20:35
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AmemRaEl you are what is called a 'TROLL' (An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response)
You are deliberately posting topics not related to what we were discussing and things which would cause controversy here.
WHEN did I mention I celebrate the Prophet's Birthday? You are generalising that ALL Muslims do this - which is a minority. You are just jumping from topic to topic in this one post.
Muslims do not visit his grave on HAJ it has nothing to do with Haj - visiting MADINAH is not part of HAJJ and is only recommended - even then we do not worship him. there isnt 'over200 attributes and titles' for him either.
His name in the athan and kalima? And ur point being? put it in context what is SAID
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.... how is this making him divine?
We have not invented a religion called muhammadism - and I have already warned you about that name.
And the dome of the rock is NOT a mosque its a monument the AL AQSA is the masjid, the dome of the rock is just a monument built over the rock in which Muhammad is said to have ascended to Heaven. - no on worships there.
Finally there is nothing wrong in Muhammads name in Calligraphy - which is an important part of Islamic expression since statues and images of him or any prophet is forbidden
You are never addressing anything I say and you are just posting more and more accusations - u clearly are not here to debate/discuss but to preach. You do not even know my understanding of Islam and assume i believe certain things e.g celebrating the prophets birthday which i do not.
No Muslim worships Muhammad you fail to understand what 'worship' actually is. He has no attributes of God.
But as I said you clearly have a set agenda here, and this is your last warning.
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24th August 2008, 21:08
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Ronin
I Have Address All Your ( Opinion's ) . Meaning That ( Opinion's ) Doesn't Work For Me . You Speak Of One Preaching Your First Two Post Were Preaching . There's A Diffrent Between Teaching And Preaching . Like I Said In The Beginning I Mean No Disrespect . If Your Looking For Me To Tell / Agree With Everything You Say . Sorry , Calling Me Names Doesn't Change The Fact's .. I Don't Expect Everyone To Agree With Eveything I Post But I Don't Call Them Name Just Because They Disagree . With The Many Diffrent School's Of Though , Which You Yourself Said Are School Of Diffrent Of ( Opinion's ) .. Can You Explain Which Of These Diffrent ( Opinion's ) / School's Of Though Are The True Teaching Of Allah , When The Qur'an Itself Speak Against Them ?
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24th August 2008, 23:16
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You haven't even addressed anything I said in regards to your post about Jesus in the Quran - I addressed all the points as to why you think Jesus is exhalted over Muhammad - every point backed up by Quran - you answered nothing - look at my second post.
The problem with your posts is that you are deliberately jumping from accusation to accusation - saying things like we have invented a religion called Muhammadism and that we all celebrate the Prophet's birthday - this is hardly representative of mainstream Islam at all.
The Prophet is the Beloved of Allah as he is the Seal of the Prophethood and is sent for all mankind - from his time to later generations - other prophets before were sent to specific people and tribes.
And the issue with Muthahib (Schools of Thought) these Schools are only based on FIQH issues - all 4 schools are legit - they have their interpretations and understandings. I personally do not follow any one school of thought. The Prophet said - as I have told you before to follow the Quran and his Sunnah - and I already proved to you before if you look at post # 11 and 13.
The Sunnah of Allah being the Quran doesn't negate the sunnah of the Prophet - if the Prophet was SENT and APPOINTED by Allah - as Muhammad's Sunnah COMPLIMENTS the Quran - it isnt there to be an alternative text that replaces the Quran.
I have given you examples before of how the Sunnah explains certain Quranic ayat - like prayer, the Hajj, wudhu etc. Without otherwise Muslims wont have an example to follow.
"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah." (33:21)
You again are ignoring my point that you are confused in regard to what the Prophet says - the Prophet's Sunnah is not his personal "opinion" - a word you like to use. I have shown u the Quranic verse which says the Prophet does not speak from his own desire - but that it is divine inspiration.
The Quran and the Sunnah go together - how do you explain Allah mentioning to obey Him and the Messenger - without following what the Prophet had said - which was not from his own desire??
Last edited by Ronin : 25th August 2008 at 01:04.
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25th August 2008, 01:36
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Ronin
Wrong In Everyone Of My Post I Backup Whatever I Said I Can't Help It If You Don't Accept It . You Looking For Someone To Agree With You . You Dance Around Things , Like I Said Allah Doesn't Deal With A ( Opinion's ) . .. The Verse I Gave You Proves Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Christ Son Of Mary Is Exhalted Over And Above Muhammad . I Also Show How Muslims Are Celebrateing Muhammad Birthday . I Also Gave You A List Of Different Sect's Of Muslims , Meaning They Adhere To A Different School Though / Teaching . Also In Post # 6 I Explain Hadiyth Are Nothing But Words Of Men And Not Of Allah And Any Hadiyth Not Back Up Back By The Qur'aan Doesn't Get It . Also In Post # 9 Give The Impression That Muhammad Give His Opinion , Either He Did Or Didn't . And Far As Me Being Confused Wrong Again . If Your Feeling Are Being Hurt By Me Using The Word Muhammadism , I Wont Use It Ok . Just Like You Stand By What Your Saying So Do I . Just Because Someone Doesn't Agree Doesn't Mean They're Confused It Means They Disagree . Overstand Something I Will Never Post Anything I Don't Know About , And I'm Not To Ashame To Say I Don't Know Something . Just Because You Say Something Doesn't Make It The Truth Because Your Coming From One Of The Many School Of Though That You Have Accepted . If Your Going To Take Things So Personal Whenever Someone Doesn't Agree With You , What Are You Going To Do When Other Come To This Forum Who Disagree Tell Them They're Confused Also ? .
Discussion = Pronunciation: di-'sk&-sh&n
1 : consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate
2 : a formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing
Debate = Pronunciation: di-'bAt, de-
: a contention by words or arguments: as a : the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French debatre, from Old French, from de- + batre to beat, from Latin battuere
intransitive senses
1 obsolete : FIGHT , CONTEND
2 a : to contend in words b : to discuss a question by considering opposed arguments
3 : to participate in a debate
transitive senses
1 a : to argue about b : to engage (an opponent) in debate
2 : to turn over in one's mind
synonym see DISCUSS
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25th August 2008, 02:08
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AGAIN you ignore what I said - I didn't say you dont back up what you said - you still have not addressed what I said in my second post - see post #5 - the next post after you just spoke of how you dont mean to disrespect anyone and listed sects of Islam, which was NOTHING to do with what I said in the previous post - it seems when you get cornered you pick on a new subtopic to cover yourself - I backed up my arguments against all your main reasons FROM THE QURAN of Jesus being exhalted over Muhammad - U havent addresses a single response of mine from that single post - read it again if you are willing to actually debate.
That verse does NOT prove Jesus is exhalted over Muhammad or 'all' prophets as you said - I have already addressed that - as the verse said SOME PROPHETS - plural. It mentioned how God has spoken to some and raised others THEN goes onto talking about Jesus being supported with miracles. So he is one of the many blessed prophets.
It is not a matter of you agreeing with me or not - it is that you just avoid my main arguments, you just dissmiss them altogether and move onto your next points.
Just because you are showing me a list of many sects (which is inevitable as the Prophet foretold that Islam - like christianity and judaism would be divided into sects) and that you have talked about a minority of Muslims celebrating the Prophet's birthday - this as i said- is not reflective of mainstream Islam.
If you were clued up on Islam as you try and make out - you would know there are only 2 eids in Islam- Eid al Adha and Eid al Fitr, bas. The prophet's birthday is not an event that the Prophet or the Companions celebrated and neither do I. So it is a baseless thing to bring up since its not in the Quran OR Sunnah - you can say many things which some Muslims are doing wrong - it doesn't mean its in the teachings of Islam.
If you want to stick to your integrity, I say you read your second post - then read my second post properly and take it from there, I am still waiting for you to reply to my response.
Last edited by Ronin : 25th August 2008 at 02:16.
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25th August 2008, 02:21
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Ronin
I Stand By Everyword I Post In Every Post Take It Or Leave It ..
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When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
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